Neven Eight ([info]neven) wrote in [info]challenging_god,
  • Mood: contemplative

Why Am I A Christian?

Why Am I A Christian?

Some of you probably guessed it from the beginning, when i started this community, that i would end up switching sides. [info]spakspang once called me Israel (as in Jacob) because, as he put it, i was the kind of guy who would pick a fight with God, and i wouldn't relent until he broke something. He has no idea how true that story is in my life. [info]challenging_god marked the day i threw down the proverbial gloves and stated outright that i wanted to take God on. My Christian friends, distressed, warned me about blasphemy and punishment, but i maintain that if God really is who he says he is, he can handle me.

People i know keep on asking what it was that had me change my mind. It was a lot of things. There is no one thing i can point out and say, "There, that was it. That's why i'm a Christian now." But i can promise you it was nothing as simple as agreeing to some theological proposition. It was a heaven and hell of a lot more than just changing my mind. So i'm writing down an account of the process of salvation i have experienced up to this point. What i say is true but you don't have to believe me. You can think i'm a liar, embellishing some delusion to trick people into signing up, or that i'm merely weak and stupid. If that's the case, don't bother to respond, i've already heard it. This is a personal experience, totally subjective, and i am not offering it as any kind of proof of anything. It is only my story to date. That's it. Take it or leave it.

It is enough to say that at one point i lost all my closest friends in one day because i confided in one a mystical experience that didn't meet their standards of Christianhood. I was called a blasphemer, heretic and witch and mocked and harassed out of the Christian community i'd spent my entire life in. I moved on to a couple other Christian communities and found some kindness and solace, but in the end it fell apart and everyone i'd come to respect as a brother or sister in the Lord was a coward, liar, or simply incapable of receiving or giving help. I abandoned my family, abandoned my church, and isolated myself as much as one can.

I had tried to live the Christian life and tried to live according to the principles i learned in the Bible, and where had it got me? I was wounded, angry, bitter and mistrustful. I distanced myself from everyone who loved me and said some awful things to them all. I exacted swift and brutal revenge on everyone who hurt or bothered me in the slightest way. I was cruel. And i hated myself for it.

I hated God because he took away my life, my friends and my joy. I wanted so badly to forgive those who had hurt me but i hadn't learned how. No one had ever taught me what it means to forgive or how to do it. I prayed for hours, days and weeks. But then i gave up. I didn't have it in me any more. I couldn't keep struggling without any answers or help.

I tried to find love and safety in a woman's arms for a year and a half but it fell apart because she renewed her life for Christ and i could not share her faith. I understood and we parted on amicable terms. But the pain of it stung nonetheless.

I tried to find truth on my own terms. I started with the assumption that some sort of Deity exists, whatever that may be, and that whether by nature or design it somehow impacted all of humanity and was thus reflected in the world's various cultures and religions. So i embarked on a kind of gnostic syncretism and found my own flavour of mediocre mysticism. The ideas seemed nice but i couldn't find it compelling enough. There was no reason to believe it other than it making sense on my own terms. So i dug deeper and unearthed my favourite doctor and mystic, Dr Carl Jung. I was extraordinarily moved by his work because it confirmed to me a thousand things i'd suspected since childhood about the mind and soul. He also highlighted compelling reasons to foster individual mysticism rooted in one's culture and world religions, based on the mysterious hereditary and organic nature of the self. I was enthralled.

I tried to practise everything i learned as i went along. No matter what it was, if it was beneficial in my mind, i did it. I wanted to be a better person. I wanted to be healthy, in my heart, my mind and my soul. I worked hard.

All this time i found myself coming back to the Gospel. I couldn't get Jesus off my mind. I was attracted to what it said. The story itself, as a narrative, the message, the sheer intensity of it. It was messy, brutal, loving, passionate, violent, chaotic and sincere. Out of every religion, philosophy or thought i studied or imagined, i could never find anything so beautiful. But beauty alone was not enough to believe it.

I discovered Nietzsche next. I read Thus Spake Zarathustra and was delighted. It was inspiring and it gave me hope for humanity, and subsequently, myself. After my own syncretic mysticism fueled by Jungian individuation of the self, Nietzsche provided the hope and inspiration i needed to continue my struggle.

But it was short-lived. As perfect a system as i could devise, it crumbled miserably where the rubber hit the road. I was no more a better man than i was when i started. And some even said i was worse off. Everything i did hurt someone or upset them. I was useless to everyone i cared about. I hated everything about myself and i was completely lost as to how to change it. I found no satisfaction in anything i did. You could say i crashed, but the truth of the matter is that i had crashed a long time ago and had only been stumbling around in denial.

I don't think it is possible to accurately describe what it's like to sincerely hate yourself and want to die any more than it is to describe what it's like to be in love. It's a sickness of the mind and disease of the spirit that only people who've fallen ill with can truly relate to. It's looking in the mirror and loathing the very soul of what you see. It's a stone in the pit of your stomach, tightness of the shoulders, cringing at the sound of your name, nausea at sunlight, longing for blackness and solitude, and going to bed shaking because the thought of waking up is unbearable. It is nightmares and insomnia. It is hopelessness and sluggishness. It is hating the sounds of all your loved ones' voices because if they could only see how desperately ugly your heart is they would never speak to you. It is holding pure and utter disgust for every thing you say and do, wishing some horrible accident would do you the courtesy.

I gave up.

I decided that the last thing i could do to benefit the people around me would be to end my life. So i planned carefully to make sure this wasn't yet another failure. I spent months carefully detailing exactly how i wanted it to be. I talked with emergency medical response team members about their experiences with suicidals. We talked the do's and don'ts of dying, what works and what doesn't. I researched suicidal tendencies, what causes them, and various help groups for people planning or just contemplating. I spoke with free counsellors about it, mostly out of curiosity, and found no help (though i must make known that they do indeed help others.) I researched bereavement and the stories of those who've lost loved ones to suicide. Then i designed a funeral rite that i felt would facilitate the mourning process more effectively. In my will i included the name and contact info of a counsellor who dealt solely with such people. I wrote a concept album exploring and expressing all my feelings on the matter. I told some people my intentions and heard all their protests against it. (I made sure none of them knew anyone who knew enough to try and stop me.) I hinted at it in my journal, as i learned is typical of suicidals. I planned the timing and the event in such a way that i would not be found in time. I wrote a ritual to help me prepare my mind and overcome my fear. I planned it in such a way that there was no way they could stop me, so they would have no reason to feel guilty. I planned it in such a way that i would die on my birthday.

This process took at least four months and in that time i had a lot of things to consider, spiritually speaking. I accounted for all possibilities and concluded that if i ended up in hell i deserved it, and accepted that possibility. I thought about everything i had done to construct the perfect mystical philosophy, and wondered how i could ever find the truth, if any truth exists. I decided that if God really is out there, i would challenge him. If God is listening, i had something to say to him. I attacked every religion i could, but it ultimately culminated in taking on the God of the Bible, the God i once tried to serve. I hated him and i would kill him if i could. So in my bitterness, regret, hatred, prejudice and rage i created [info]challenging_god to take on the Christian community and their God. The Christians who still managed to put up with me accepted the challenge, as concerned as they were about me personally, and the rest of this community is history.

I tried to keep an open mind and consider what was said to me. I argued with the best of them and enjoyed much of the interaction that ensued. But it was not enough and i continued with my plans. I decided that my attempt would be the ultimate challenge. If God really existed, if God really wanted me, he would stop me and reveal himself to me. I invoked this thought a number of times in my album, saying, "..and god / if you want me / i invite you / to try and stop me," and "Will you be there, lord? I want to see." If God was really there he would interfere directly and make himself known to me. I wasn't counting on it.

The night in question i was fully prepared. I had eaten an excellent meal and gotten drunk for breakfast. I sobered up with another excellent meal for lunch. I tied up my loose ends online. I said goodbye to my best female friend, [info]h1s_songb1rd, and posted my lyrics and suicide letter on the Internet where i knew no one would be able to act fast enough to stop me. I went to a little park where it was dead at night and no one came. I figured it would be nice to die in a beautiful place. I prepared myself and went through the motions of the ritual. I spoke to myself and calmed myself and accepted fully and completely what i was about to do. I warmed up by slicing both forearms with the razor. It was raining. I shivered but i liked the cold. I bled a little and it was comforting. The blood mingled with rain drops and it was beautiful. I laughed. I then pressed the knife against my wrist and took another deep breath. I don't know how long i was there. It felt like an eternity. It might've been only a few minutes. I contemplated everything that had passed to bring me to that point. I remembered my childhood, my parents, my friends, my teachers and my enemies. I remembered happy moments and bitter ones. I thought about how my thinking, no matter how proper and correct it seemed, had only brought me to worse forms of self-destruction. I thought about my conclusion, that i needed to go, and agreed with myself that it had to be done. Throughout all this i would take opportunities to press down harder and test the resilience of my skin. I would have to bear down hard to make a cut deep enough. Then my mind cleared. I was ready. I took another deep breath. And suddenly, in a swift movement, the knife was knocked, or wrested, from my hand and before i could see it, let alone catch it, broken into pieces on the ground. I looked down at the knife in complete shock. I couldn't believe it. I bent down and tried to reassemble it but it was hopeless. I tried to cut myself with one of the pieces but it was impossible to get the leverage i needed.

I was devastated. I screamed. I fretted and wept. What could i do now? My intentions were published online and i wouldn't have another chance. I couldn't get another knife, everything was closed. I had nowhere to go and hide until i could try again, and people would be looking for me. What could i do now? I looked ahead of me, to the path on my right and the bridge across the pond in front of me. I could stay the night with my best male friend and hope he hadn't gone online or that no one had called him. I could go to my dad's place and tell him what happened. It was a choice between life again or an unpleasant, messy death. I considered what had just occurred and the implications of it. I didn't know. I chose life.

My dad found me frantic and incomprehensible. I took my sweater off and he saw my bloody arms. I was soaking wet from the rain and shivering, so i took a hot shower. Then we talked about what happened but i couldn't find a way to articulate why. I told him i was useless and a burden on all those around me, which was partly how i felt. He resolved to find ways to encourage my talents and have me get whatever help i might need with my emotional problems. I accepted whatever came as providence. I couldn't shake what had happened from my mind.

I didn't drop it. I had a vice grip on the thing: i needed that kind of grip to make sure i cut deep enough to sever a major artery. It happened so fast. I couldn't have just let go of it. It was an act of someone's will, whether my own, or someone's. I contemplated whether it was some act of primal, instinctual self-preservation. My instincts hijacked my brain and made me let go of it. Maybe, i thought, that could be it. It could be instinct, or maybe some kind of natural slip. It was raining, after all. But i had grabbed the knife before it started raining. Sweat? No, i was cold and not sweating at all. So was it instinct? It could be. But try as i did i couldn't shake the realization that whatever it was, by some force i was unable to explain i was still here, alive.

Whether that force was some kind of instinctual drive, archetypical inertia or synchronicity, i decided to call that thing "God" and see where it would lead me. It was responsible for my life now. I would only follow and obey as directed. If this was truly the God of the Bible or any other kind of god, i would allow it to show me, and i would live with it however it wanted. I didn't care at all. I had lived up to my full potential and come short of everything i wanted in life and wanted to be. If something out there wanted me alive and could sustain me, i would live how it wanted and die if it so pleased. I had come to the end of myself.

I won't go into everything that followed. Not long after that event i moved to another province to live with my younger brother. We had a rapport that seemed to work. I felt okay for a few months. But then it all came back again. Nevertheless, good things were happening again. Whatever this "God" was, it was helping me get the things i needed to get my act together. As for my beliefs? Since i could not deny the prevalence of paranormal and terribly synchronistic events in my life, the reasonable conclusion was chaoism, or chaos magick, an occultic extension of nihilism. In chaoism the only creed is "Nothing is true; all is permitted," a quote often attributed to Hassan I Sabbah. The idea is that the value of a belief is not in whether it is true, something that cannot be determined, but in whether it is useful. So the chaoist utilizes whatever belief or magickal technique they can to accomplish their goals. And since the only thing i knew about this God was that it wanted me alive, i felt i had free reign to explore whatever ideas worked for the time being.

I had a significant amount of success. I was able to protect and curse as i saw fit. But i found that God wanted to participate in the things i did. I couldn't possibly describe to you any of these things or what it felt like. I can only say about my experience of God was that it was remarkably comparable to Austin Osman Spare's description of the Kia. It was different, though. This God was more personal; it had direct influence on the little things in my life. It guided my life through a kind of results mysticism akin to contemplative prayer. It was hilarious and generous and frightening and powerful.

I had all kinds of beliefs but i had to work with my experiences. I knew what worked so i had to come up with reasons to explain them. The best i could do was a mixture of Jungian psychiatry with Spare's Zos-Kia magickal techniques. It was flimsy but it was also irrelevant because nothing is true anyway.

But then there was the Gospel and Jesus Christ. I couldn't escape it. I couldn't get away from it no matter how i tried. I hated them. I wanted to ignore them but couldn't. The Gospel offended me. I hated what Jesus Christ said. I wanted to tear it all apart and throw it away but as much as i wanted to i was unable to do it. I resumed my challenges against Christians and Christianity, but at the same time fought with some of the reasons people justified the Christian faith with. So much of it did make sense to me but in my heart i couldn't accept the underlying implications. Jesus Christ, God? The Way, the Truth and the Life? Love others as we love ourselves? Love our enemies? Forgive? How could i do that? I couldn't before. I never had any trouble accepting that humans are sinful and corrupt. But how could i believe that humans could be saved by Jesus Christ, a crucified God, who never gave me the things i needed to get by and change my life? What kind of God was this, who would let his people suffer so needlessly? I couldn't accept it. I hated it. I was offended.

[info]h1s_songb1rd was with me throughout this whole time. By this time we were more than friends, and she really helped me keep perspective. She never gave up on me because she was a Christian and i was not. She kept me accountable and wouldn't let me feed her some line of philosophical bullshit. She confronted me with the Gospel as much as i would allow and made me think about it. We talked and fought it over. She never gave in. She conceded whatever point i successfully debated, but it was always a hollow victory because it never won the war against God. Then she asked me one day, "Why are you so angry?"

She kept me responsible to myself. I hated the God of the Bible. But why? If nothing was true, what motivated me to anger every time we talked about the Christ? No other religious figure, historical or mythical, affected me like that. Why was i so offended when i read the Gospels? No other text ever made me angry. I flew into a rage sometimes and would yell at my girlfriend because of it. Why? Why was i so upset? What was it? I had to find out. I realized then that if i wanted to actually be free to choose whatever belief and do any thing i wanted i would have to free myself from this horrid, implosive hatred of the Christ and all he stood for. I had to deal with him on a personal level and free myself from that awful attachment, whatever its cause. I decided to pray to him.

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, right? I figured if i can't get rid of the Christ, i might as well use him. See what he's capable of. I began asking for things i needed and insight into situations that might harm someone i love or myself. I got everything i asked for. I used his name to accomplish things in my life that i couldn't accomplish otherwise. Changes in my environment, changes in those around me, and changes in my self. I'm being non-specific for a good reason. If you can't take my word for it now, there's no point in giving you details. I'm not trying to prove anything to you. It happened or it didn't. Getting everything i wanted from the Christ was a profound success. In chaoist's terms, he was incredibly useful.

[info]h1s_songb1rd hated what i was doing. It was incredibly blasphemous. But i assured her that if the Christ really is who he says he is, he wouldn't tolerate it for long. She wanted my assurance that i would some day believe in him, really believe in him. I told her that i couldn't let go of him now since he was giving me everything i'm after. I was not about to give up on such a good thing. As for being the Christ, a real person, an actual deity, the Living God, he would have to show me that himself.

I continued what i was doing and increased the level of involvement the Christ had in my life. I figured if i could use him sometimes, why not use him all the time? The Kia notion of God was working and there was no conflict between the two. Besides, so what if there was? Nothing is true anyway. Pretty soon i worked with no other belief at all. It was all the Zos-Kia and the Christ in a somewhat shallow but doable mixture. I found the Bible useful for revealing insights and things i hadn't considered in relation to situations around me. Then i began having dreams that warned me of things to come and how to deal with them. Others told me how to change certain parts of my psyche that were holding me back. Others gave me solutions to personal conflicts and relationships. It was impressive and helpful. I never asked for that degree of help but i appreciated it nonetheless.

I couldn't tell you everything. Only [info]h1s_songb1rd knows. She was there through it all, supportive and helping me and encouraging me. She expressed every last concern and objection but she never condemned me. She was always loving, even though now i really was blaspheming and not trying to be a Christian. We talked about everything that happened and what it meant. She heard me out and made sure i heard her. It was an equal exchange. I learned so much. And i'm sure she did too. We're great partners. She held my hand through everything, no matter what i believed.

Then i had a dream that changed everything. It was the kind i had been dreaming in series before, the kind which told me of things to come and how to deal with different situations. It was more significant, however, because in it were some very specific things i had never heard of before. I searched them out and found that the people and things i'd dreamed of were indeed real, as were the things my dream told me about them. But the meaning of the dream struck me hard: i was told to either submit to the Christ and follow him alone or i would end up a mad, lost and confused "prophet" for the rest of my life. I was taken aback.

This was the kind of thing i had been waiting for. The "Kia" was telling me i needed to worship the Christ as who he said he was, not only a useful belief to utilize in my daily practise. It occurred to me that i could only get so far with a man who claimed to be the Way, the Truth and the Life while simultaneously denying the existence of Truth. It was take the plunge and go with the Christ, whom i still felt reservations about, or take the "safe" road away from him and never find anything different. I loved where this was going and there was no way i was going back. I chose to take a chance on the Christ.

I wrote and prayed (among other things) the following: I hereby renounce chaoism. I commit myself to progression toward you, in your Spirit, by your grace, through faith. I repent of having abandoned your truth, your spirit, your guidance and that of those you have appointed to lead. I ask that you cleanse my mind and my heart of all those things i have done to poison them, but allow me to retain all the things i have learned that may serve to promote your love, your truth, and your wisdom to other people in my life. I ask that you forgive my sins, and i thank you that you do. Help me to continually seek you and move toward you. Thank you for "pruning" me, for privilege of being "grafted into the vine." Thank you for your correction. I choose to worship you and you only, and to learn from your Spirit and your Spirit only, wherever it may lead me, in accordance with the truths you have set out in the Scriptures. In Jesus' name, Amen. I shared this prayer with [info]h1s_songb1rd, who was exceedingly happy. Our life together has never been the same.

I could never regret my decision. Since i chose to recognize the authority of the Christ in my life, everything has come together to improve my well-being, from my spiritual life to my thought life to my emotions and my body. Everything i have wanted to change about myself but could not is changing. Everything i have ever wanted to be i am becoming. Honestly, sincerely, truthfully, i can finally say that i actually like myself. I look in the mirror and i can tolerate me. I love this progress that is being made and there is nothing i could have done alone to make it. Jesus the Christ is actively involved in my life and making it all happen. I cannot begin to fathom everything that has been going on since then, but i can say that i could never turn back now. Nothing could make me stop loving him. It can only improve from this point forward. I'm not about to ever let anyone or anything take this amazement and joy away from me. I am different now and i could never go away from it.

Self-destructive, selfish and bitter patterns of thought have changed and are changing. I'm becoming more able to forgive and let others be and not punish them. I've been able to make amends and reconcile with people i've hurt and troubled for years out of spite because they had hurt me. I've been able to make near immediate changes in my thinking to help for better relationships overall. I've been more confident and able to take charge of my life without manipulating or hurting others. I'm more able to think clearly and see things in my life without hurt, bitterness or malice. Physically, i have more energy and i can enjoy more activity. Emotionally, i'm better able to take care of my heart without exploding or taking revenge. But not only that, i have so much more happiness, gratitude and lovely feelings in my life. Mentally, i am lucid and able to perceive a greater degree of my own mind so i can take more control over my own thoughts and habits. Spiritually, i have a great love and peace that could not possibly be comprehended in any other way but by one's similar spiritual experience. Overall, i am complete and healthier in a way i never thought possible.

I have joy.

I cannot begin to explain everything that has happened. It's enough to say what i've written here. GOD is everything i've ever wanted and more. I am my fullest potential and more in him. I cannot begin to describe it, but i can tell you what is true. Jesus the Christ is Lord. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. There is no other path of true salvation. There is no other valid path. If you are willing to commit everything toward having him, he will commit everything toward having you. It's a process, a long, difficult and costly process. Because of the changes GOD has made in my life, some of my family is not willing to speak to me. But GOD in my life, and the unquantifiable good, and self-esteem i have achieved because of him, are more than anything my loved ones could say or do to hurt me. And that is the way it is. You must be willing to give up everything for the Truth. Absolutely everything. But if you are sincere in your heart that you want GOD more than anything, you will have him, life and life abundantly. I will say no more about that here.

This is just my story to date. It's not some theological thesis. It's not some kind of proof of GOD. You can deny it all you want. It's an answer to the question: Why Am I a Christian? I haven't told you everything, but you don't need to know more than what i've written. I hope this has made a positive impact. I do hope and pray that you come to know the Lord and love him, but that is between you and him, not me. Remember, i am only one man. GOD is infinitely more than you or i.

Thanks for reading.


~Shawn
Moderator, [info]challenging_god

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[info]shareul

November 20 2004, 17:30:37 UTC 7 years ago

I don't have words, but you and [info]h1s_songb1rd are always in my prayers, Shawn. God is persistant. *hugs*

[info]mlfoley

November 20 2004, 17:37:30 UTC 7 years ago

Yes, yes He is. :D

[info]neven

7 years ago

[info]neven

7 years ago

[info]mlfoley

November 20 2004, 17:37:18 UTC 7 years ago

Your story sounds so much like mine in various ways, I am tempted to contact a lawyer!

Seriously though, that is great and reminds me all too well of my own tale. Praise God for caring enough for us both. :D

[info]neven

November 21 2004, 13:41:13 UTC 7 years ago

Praise GOD indeed! We're not alone. *smile*

[info]neven

7 years ago

[info]mlfoley

7 years ago

[info]lilymaris

November 20 2004, 17:43:23 UTC 7 years ago

Thanks for sharing that heartfelt story with us :)

You challenged your God, and he took you up on it. Good for you for finding happiness and what works for you.

[info]neven

November 21 2004, 13:41:23 UTC 7 years ago

:)

[info]arewar

November 20 2004, 18:39:35 UTC 7 years ago

Well... good for you, I guess.

At the risk of being banned, I have to say though: It sounds to me like you wanted and were desperate for God to prove his existence to you. So God - aka your subconscious - gave you exactly what you wanted.

A dream isn't proof of anything, no matter how real it seems. If it was, then aliens currently exist, I was an Olympian God of Greece in a past life, and I'm going to Queen of the Saiyajin race in a few hundred years.

But, whatever floats your boat.

[info]tightsight

November 20 2004, 19:33:55 UTC 7 years ago

Especially if you are thinking about god or having some sort of deep spiritual crisis. Gee, what do you think the odds of dreaming about him are then?

[info]jrfrench

7 years ago

[info]arewar

7 years ago

[info]jrfrench

7 years ago

[info]neven

7 years ago

[info]swaysaint

November 20 2004, 18:48:39 UTC 7 years ago

and another one takes the blue pill...

[info]thedeadinla

November 21 2004, 01:17:16 UTC 7 years ago

odd, it seemed more like the red one to me.

[info]hurm

7 years ago

[info]neven

7 years ago

[info]alienus

7 years ago

[info]ktl

7 years ago

[info]neven

7 years ago

[info]neven

7 years ago

[info]island_child13

November 20 2004, 19:56:09 UTC 7 years ago

Sounds like all the anger came from your whole life being flipped upside down and your close friends turning on you like that because of their religious affiliation, then the projection of that anger on to that religion because it was the reason they turned on you. Got to love all that tollerance your friends had. Nothing is sadder then people who expect tolerence towards their own point of view but when it comes to others they completely blast it. Gets on the nerves when they can manage to link a speach about people being tolerent and then go on and walk right over someone else in the next sentence. Your story doesn't mention ever trying to believe in no God at all in there, just wondering if you tried that out. I also get the feeling from that story that you believe that a higher power owes you something or that believing in one will somehow get you what you want.

In anycase good to hear that your life is more stable but I think you're under selling yourself on the whole not being able to change on your own thing. Sounds like you used the whole God thing as a reason to change instead of just doing it for yourself and the intrinsic value of it.

[info]literal

November 20 2004, 20:01:08 UTC 7 years ago

"Your story doesn't mention ever trying to believe in no God at all in there"

You can't try to believe in nothing, at least I can't. You either believe or you don't.

[info]hurm

7 years ago

[info]neven

7 years ago

[info]literal

November 20 2004, 19:59:11 UTC 7 years ago

As we say in church, Welcome and Peace be with you.

[info]swaysaint

November 20 2004, 20:18:53 UTC 7 years ago

christianity and peace?

you gotta be shittin me

[info]literal

7 years ago

[info]neven

7 years ago

[info]jrfrench

November 20 2004, 20:40:38 UTC 7 years ago

Sounds like a classic example of what I was talking about in my "reconciliation" post. I suppose it's been pointed out that this could just as easily be seen as proving the validity of chaos magick? You had this egregore that you hated, and focused all that emotion on it. Any chaot would tell you a priori what would happen. (You're on my turf when it comes to magick; you were really just dabbling. Magick has been the center of my life for ten years, so bring it on.) It doesn't matter in what spirit you contact the egregore, they respond to the prayer said with feeling-any feeling. You just happened to pick the egregore with the most clout in our society (Christianity permeates most of our assumptions about the universe) and hurl the ruling emotion of that period of your life at it.

Another way of saying this is, as I stated in the aforementioned post "Take one step toward Allah (or Jesus) and He takes two steps toward you".

[info]neven

November 21 2004, 14:38:45 UTC 7 years ago

I wasn't trying to impress anyone with magick. It was a matter of functionality only.

Chaos magick is funny in that so many assumptions are held as true while simultaneously forbidding the existence of truth. I say forbidding because a true chaote would easily accept the possibility that some things are true, and some things are not permitted. That being said, it shouldn't be any surprise or impossibility to a true chaote that something for another chaote happened to be true after all. Merely coming up with an explaination with which to deny it takes no real talent or daring whatsoever. And that's the case here because the given explaination is futile and irrelevant.

First of all, what reason does anyone have to believe that any egregore exists at all? Experience? But nothing is true. So let's discount their existence for a moment. Let's say that no egregores exist and that all magick pertains to spiritual entities that are aware of themselves and others. In the process of finding a spiritual belief which matched both my experience and my intentions—ie, the whole self, past, emotions and vision, combined—i actually contacted individual, self-aware entities which were either able, willing, not able or not willing to facilitate my desires. Finally, i found one which was not only able and willing to facilitate my desires, it gave me things i needed which i hadn't asked for. What's more, it gave me insight into situations i could not have seen or known about so that i could make healthy choices in the days to come. Even moreso, it did nearly all these things without me asking it or seeking it out.

But let's back up a moment. Whether by my unconscious or another form of will, the knife was removed from my hand and i was saved. I didn't believe in egregores then. I didn't believe in Jesus. I challenged him, but i did not believe he would do anything. Did i want to believe bad enough that my hand made it happen? I could accept that possibility. But where did it lead me now? How was my unconscious desire to live and improve my life able to give me so much now that it was not capable of before, especially since i tried all sorts of beliefs to accomplish it? Ever since that day, the successful means of accomplishing my Will—which is to say, the Lord's will—was through belief in Jesus Christ. Now that i fully believe, why is my unconscious so able to accomplish all these things now that i accept a delusion? And what's more, how can you, a chaote, say it is a delusion?

Because i threw the ruling emotion of that period of my life at it? How is it that it not only gave me more than i asked for, it gave when i never asked? It would do things for me that i never asked it to do. The amazing thing to me is that a chaote would view this merely as a symptom, not a meaningful phenomenon. How can a godform, if it be only that, accomplish its own wishes if it has no will of its own? And if it has a will, what's to say it isn't more than an unconscious part of the individual self? And if more than an aspect of self, having its own will and identity, and combined with the power of an egregore, what use is it to call it a godform or an egregore if doing so would only limit the power and accomplishment one can enjoy in full service? And finally, what is the practical difference between the godform and egregore and an actual deity?

And if actually believing in Jesus Christ, as opposed to merely supposing for a time, is far more effective and beneficial, would that not make it the superior magick? Think about it.

[info]jrfrench

7 years ago

[info]neven

7 years ago

[info]alienus

November 20 2004, 20:58:14 UTC 7 years ago

I have to admit that I skimmed, but the gist I got is that you left Christianity on an irrational basis and returned on the same. At no point was there any good reason to believe in God's existence, much less the truth of Christianity.

In short, you were never a rational atheist.

[info]mlfoley

November 21 2004, 05:28:24 UTC 7 years ago

"I started with the assumption that some sort of Deity exists,"

Next time, try actually reading the post before making smug commoments.

[info]alienus

7 years ago

[info]mlfoley

7 years ago

[info]alienus

7 years ago

[info]neven

7 years ago

[info]ktl

7 years ago

[info]mlfoley

7 years ago

[info]ktl

7 years ago

[info]mlfoley

7 years ago

[info]alienus

7 years ago

[info]neven

7 years ago

[info]alienus

7 years ago

[info]neven

7 years ago

[info]notanaveragedan

November 20 2004, 21:08:04 UTC 7 years ago

hmmm... interesting story.

[info]neven

November 21 2004, 14:40:15 UTC 7 years ago

Glad it was at least that. Bless. :)

[info]serpensorsia

November 20 2004, 22:00:14 UTC 7 years ago

I hated the God of the Bible. But why? If nothing was true, what motivated me to anger every time we talked about the Christ? No other religious figure, historical or mythical, affected me like that.


Because you weren't raised in a culture where other historical or mythical figures were talked about, inculcated from day one, or beloved and adored like jesus.

If you had been from Thailand, you would have felt the same way about Buddha. This is a case of simple psychology and comfort based on formative years reinforcement. In your case, your "rejection" of God and christianity and jesus, and all of your occult tourism, only reinforced it that much stronger in your subconscious, before it burst forth again.

In the end, sometimes, some minds just need the basic, ground-level comfort of what the vast majority around them think and label "right, normal, and good".






[info]mlfoley

November 21 2004, 05:30:18 UTC 7 years ago

But the interesting thing is that the morality of Jesus often equal or surpass those of other world religious figures.

[info]mlfoley

7 years ago

[info]neven

7 years ago

[info]neven

7 years ago

[info]neven

7 years ago

[info]irishguy8

7 years ago

[info]irishguy8

7 years ago

[info]xeyro

November 20 2004, 23:23:43 UTC 7 years ago

Excellent, excellent post...

[info]neven

November 21 2004, 14:48:11 UTC 7 years ago

Glad you like it.

[info]ktl

November 20 2004, 23:29:22 UTC 7 years ago

It is interesting that, despite your multitude of disclaimers that you are not submitting this as proof of anything and realize it is only one personal subjective story, the only mental filter through which some can understand your post IS that of "is/isn't this proof for the reality of Jesus Christ?".

[info]hollowman

November 21 2004, 00:58:20 UTC 7 years ago


Who responded in that manner? Clearly it wasn't evidence for or against. I didn't see anyone respond to it as such. A few people were interested in the psychology behind it, a few weren't. I didn't really see much in it to respond to, myself.

[info]ktl

7 years ago

[info]hollowman

7 years ago

[info]ktl

7 years ago

[info]hollowman

7 years ago

[info]ktl

7 years ago

[info]neven

7 years ago

[info]neven

7 years ago

[info]thedeadinla

November 21 2004, 01:15:10 UTC 7 years ago

wow, the things you have gone through...i'm glad you got your happy ending.
your experiences are unique, and isnt it great that you made [info]challenging_god to improve the understanding of less learned christians like me?
that, i would say, qualifies as a blessing.

just too bad that some people didnt really read the entire thing, just jumping to the comments link to type up their arguement against dreams and whatnot.

[info]neven

November 21 2004, 14:52:29 UTC 7 years ago

wow, the things you have gone through...i'm glad you got your happy ending.

It's not always happy and it isn't the end, but it's something, that's for sure. Hehe. :)


your experiences are unique, and isnt it great that you made challenging_god to improve the understanding of less learned christians like me?

I don't know how unique my experiences are. I'm happy to have made this community because i know that all kinds of people benefit from it. I'm glad it's here and that i can share my experience with others in this kind of setting. It makes for more interaction between Christians and non-Christians.


just too bad that some people didnt really read the entire thing, just jumping to the comments link to type up their arguement against dreams and whatnot.

Agreed. Some people are too busy trying to be right to ever really hear what the other is saying.

[info]eggy_banana

November 21 2004, 04:56:20 UTC 7 years ago

i didnt read it all, im sorry, its too long for my poor eyes to see, i read the first bit tho, u sound like me, i can never put my finger on the point and say thats where/when/why i became a christian.
Good luck dude
Eggy
xx

[info]neven

November 21 2004, 14:53:00 UTC 7 years ago

You too.

[info]nobleprolet

November 21 2004, 07:14:52 UTC 7 years ago

Very interesting post. I especially found your telling of the suicide attempt interesting. I had been on a suicide trip too around 1 1/2 years ago, and had a similar experience. I had been at a railroad track and had put my head on the rails and then I felt into a kind of trance, I had been very tired and almost slipped in. My eyes were open though, facing the ground. Then I suddenly had a weird experience, it was like seeing some shiny jelly dropping out of my head and onto the ground, for me to see. Out of the jelly formed some kind of head who violently shook his head. This somehow snapped me out of the trance and I looked up to my left ... from where I saw a (real) locomotive coming close quickly, being only 15 meters away. Which caused me to rapidly abandon my suicide idea and move away.

In contrary to you though this event caused me to find esteem against religious fears which had been a deep problem for me for several years. I found out that my human life has a priority in the scheme of things, meaning that I do possess some kind of right to freedom. But that's already an ethical interpretation but might not be the raw truth itself.

I'm a little sceptic about your dream being of divine origin. I think that we are sentient because of the mathematical structure of our intelligence, meaning that sometimes when our habits soften up and when we come into more lucid states of mind our lake of mental perception becomes clear and that then we "see", "hear" or simply just "perceive" or "know" what can be true or possible, true according to the mathematical structure of our intelligence. For instance after pondering the theme of the Matrix movie for a while, recently I dreamt I would wake up and then move around in a big hall full of machines. I could take that as proof that my dream revealed me the truth, but it could also just be that my mind showed me what, for the mind, is possible.

Anyway, apologies for my talk-talk ... I'm glad you came to a point where you can sincerely enjoy yourself and your life again.




[info]neven

November 21 2004, 15:00:42 UTC 7 years ago

In contrary to you though this event caused me to find esteem against religious fears which had been a deep problem for me for several years. I found out that my human life has a priority in the scheme of things, meaning that I do possess some kind of right to freedom. But that's already an ethical interpretation but might not be the raw truth itself.

An encounter with death will change you, whether it be your own or someone else's. Like mine, yours was a positive change. It brought you back to more positive, life-affirming values. I could say the same of myself, but it took a lot longer to process the changes and do something about them. I'm happy that you now see that your human life has a priority in the scheme of things. That is a good thing indeed. :)


I'm a little sceptic about your dream being of divine origin.

Dreams, plural. In a series of dreams which all either showed me things i could not possibly have known, given me the right thing to do in situations i hadn't anticipated before, or helped me fix problems i had no idea how to fix, it makes sense that a dream giving me the option between this and that and telling me what the consequences of each are would be something that i want to pay attention to and follow, divine or not.


Anyway, apologies for my talk-talk

Not at all.


I'm glad you came to a point where you can sincerely enjoy yourself and your life again.

You too.

[info]createdestiny

November 21 2004, 11:14:06 UTC 7 years ago

Wow. Thanks for sharing your life story.

Christ = death to the ego.

When it comes right down to it there are only two paths: the path of forgiveness and the path of resentment.

God have mercy on us all.

[info]neven

November 21 2004, 15:01:37 UTC 7 years ago

Indeed. *smile*

[info]bmp

November 21 2004, 12:37:04 UTC 7 years ago

Joy is a biggie for me too... Except when I start thinking along those lines, I also realize how much more love, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control I have. Funny how that works, eh? ;)

[info]neven

November 21 2004, 15:01:55 UTC 7 years ago

Hehe. For sure! :)

[info]skittle_bitch

November 21 2004, 13:29:08 UTC 7 years ago

I know this isn't supposed to be any proof of jesus and god and the like. And before anyone even tries to dismiss me as someone who skimmed the entire story, no, I read it. I read it all.

I find it interesting, and I would have to admit that if I was that close to the brink of suicide, I'd be startled too, if the blade I had been holding with a vice-like grip suddenly fell to the ground. I might have started believing in a greater god as well. But this is where any sort of similarity ends.

I don't think I'll ever find myself at that sort of brink because of a lack of god. I won't. I like challenging christians, but I don't hate them. (I was once a christian too), and I wouldn't demand to ask god to save me from myself. It's just not necessary. But one thing that does fuel my reasoning that there is no god, at least in the sense that these worldy religions would imply, is that you had a dream of christ, and powerful visions of christ because you knew of him and his stories before. It takes away some of the credit if someone tells you repeatedly how great jesus is and then one day have a powerful dream that shows just that. I think I would have been more surprised though, if somehow it had been the prophet Mohammed (sp?) that came to you in your sleep. Or the buddha, or any other strong religious figure that many people follow. Imagine that? But you won't have a dream of those prophets will you? Nor will any other christian. Likewise, no muslim will dream about jesus, nor a buddhist about one of the many hindu dieties. That's my point. Only people exposed to a religion will find any spiritual meaning to it. The ones that never heard of it will live and die without knowing the "truth of god" and what kind of god doesn't bother coming to those people's dreams?

[info]neven

November 21 2004, 15:05:56 UTC 7 years ago

But you won't have a dream of those prophets will you?

I have had dreams about them, actually. Muhammed and Islam, Gautama and some other Buddhas, and some others i've never heard of. I've talked with them and other religious figures in dreams, too. Imagine that.

[info]neven

7 years ago

[info]flyingapple

November 21 2004, 21:02:27 UTC 7 years ago

Have you talked to a shrink about any of this? Sometimes maybe its god, but sometimes is brain chemicals and the mind's incredible capacity to rationalize what it wants - in your case, to believe in God, to believe that you are chosen, and to believe that you are in contol of yourself.

as someone who has also suffered depression, social isolation, grief, existential crises, and a few suicidal thoughts, I empathize with a lot of what you've gone through. but I also personally know how self-serving the mind can be.

[info]neven

November 22 2004, 16:03:10 UTC 7 years ago

I considered that i might be crazy. In fact, with all i'd gone through, i was really hoping i was. But once i got talking about this sort of thing with my brother's pagan girlfriend and she ended up describing things to me that i'd seen in visions and dreams and never told anyone before. Very personal things that she could not have possibly known, in exact detail. It really threw me for a loop and i had to reconsider. But i appreciate the thought. Just not everything can be dismissed as a malfunctioning brain.

[info]cpk

November 23 2004, 00:37:42 UTC 7 years ago

Heh. Unlike [info]mlfoley, this is a reconversion experience almost entirely unlike mine. But I am glad you shared it with us.

Basically what happened with me is that I studied Christianity in order to find excuses not to believe and found Christ along the way. As it were, I built an intellectual house for the Holy Spirit, and one day He moved in.

But the Holy Spirit is such that you can build the house around it later. :) Thanks once again.

[info]bmp

November 23 2004, 05:09:42 UTC 7 years ago

your story sounds an awful lot like Lee Strobel's :)

[info]cpk

7 years ago

[info]neven

7 years ago

[info]a_view_so_cruel

November 23 2004, 09:54:45 UTC 7 years ago

That was such a wonderful story, and made me feel like I understand you a lot better.
While I still don't agree with 90% of what you say, I understand moreso why you believe as you do, and I respect you for really opening yourself up to this community and saying all of this. I could never have the balls to do that.

I've suffered depression and I've been through a lot of shit, a lot more than most people by the time they're 21. I'm not going to say I've found the truth in my suffering, but I'm beginning to find myself and understand the world better.
I don't think I'll ever become a christian, at least not the desperate evangelitical type, but I feel very spiritually content right now, moreso than I have ever been as a christian.

[info]neven

November 25 2004, 12:13:51 UTC 7 years ago

Have you looked into Eastern Orthodox Christianity? The theology is rich and beautiful and those of the Eastern persuasion are not afraid of big scary words like "mystery" and "mysticism." They are actually encouraged. :)

Suffering has a way of putting things into perspective. One of the many things i appreciate about Christianity is that instead of denying suffering like the Buddhists do (for this is all an illusion, remember?) or trying to escape it like the Hindus do, it embraces suffering and makes it an integral part of the divine-human identity. We are not blamed for our suffering, but strengthened and encouraged to go through it, knowing that GOD is with us and only refines us further in our communion with the divine.

I'm glad you liked the post. I was a little nervous how people would react.

[info]xsoulsongx

December 30 2004, 07:34:41 UTC 7 years ago

Shawn, I just wanted to tell you that your testimony blessed me. I am so glad to hear of the joy you've found in Jesus Christ. I know that I'd be lost without it! Thank you for being bold enough to share what Christ has done in your life. I wish you all the best... God bless!

[info]orangelemon

January 10 2005, 02:01:03 UTC 7 years ago

I love your story and am so glad that you posted it. I wish that I could articulate my own this well - figuring out how to tell my own story about faith is something that I think about a lot lately.

One thing I wish: that discussions about God (or the transcendent or divine, whatever people want to call it) could be more about our experience of God (as this post of yours is) than arguments about what is logical. I think logic has its place, but as a vehicle it only takes us so far, I think, and then there are other human characteristics like emotions that can sometimes carry us farther on the journey.

I am looking forward to rereading your post when I have more time to think and write - it is very inspirational. Thanks again.

[info]neven

January 14 2005, 05:12:53 UTC 7 years ago

I'm happy you found it inspirational. I agree about the more human approach to discussing GOD. I would like to see more personal posts in here, too. Nobody i know of bases their life on purely logical principles alone. No one, no matter how logical they truly are. So i wonder what else people are here for, or what makes them choose the things they choose.

[info]pyrohypnotik

January 28 2005, 00:31:41 UTC 7 years ago

I've been a part of this community for a while now but this is the first time I've read this. Your's is truly an amazing story. I remember you mentioning to me once about the knife a while back. My story is similar in pattern but it was God not Christ that came to be and changed my life. I believe in Christ but my allegiance is to God. My life has continually gotten better. You did not drop the knife it was removed from your hand.

Peace

[info]neven

January 29 2005, 23:42:27 UTC 7 years ago

Yes, it was removed from my hand. :)

I'm curious who you believe the Christ is, or isn't. I believe in the Trinity, making the Christ GOD the Son in my eyes, but you differentiate between the two. How so?

Peace to you, too. :)
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